Curse

drkn · Jan 20, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

I'd say - either add unconditionals/triplies back to game, maybe with a very low drop rate and/or only in some elite locations (just not UW, please), or fix them all, so they're balanced to the level of items that still do drop.

Hobbs · Jan 20, 2011, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Unconditionals aren't imba. A 15^50 and a 20_50 will do a better job than an Unconditional. Even though I don't, and won't, have one i'd be sad to see them nerfed.

HawkofStorms · Jan 20, 2011, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Here is another big point to make... unconditionals aren't "better" then normal weapons like triples are. Triples actually provide an in game benefit as there is no way to replicate the stats.
Example, a player is using a 15% unconditional.
Another player is using a 15% ^ 50 mod. If that players health drops below 50, he could always weapon swap to a 20% under 50 mod. The player using the unconditional weapon, while able to be lazier, is ACTUALLY DOING LESS DAMAGE then a skilled player using proper weapon swaps. Unconditionals do not give any in game advantage, as they are statistically worse then normal weapons. At least, at any form of high level play where use of such weapons would matter, since everybody in that skill level should be able to weapon swap already.

Unconditionals are worth a lot because they are rare, not because they are "better."

(Argh ninjaed^)

killerbot3009 · Jan 20, 2011, 11:33 PM // 23:33

lol, fail idea in my opinion, they are rare drops, and collectors items, if they "fixed" them as you are suggesting it would bankrupt rich collectors, which isnt really fair lol, we worked hard for unconditional weapons and if you want to remove them that is a personal opinion and i think you should save up and get one lol.
they offer no more advantage than a Q8 weapon does, so why would you want to change it.

lets face it +15dmg items......all it saves you from doing is switching between +15^50 and +20v50. no game advantage what so ever... lol just time saving.

reaper with no name · Jan 21, 2011, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Here is another big point to make... unconditionals aren't "better" then normal weapons like triples are. Triples actually provide an in game benefit as there is no way to replicate the stats.
Example, a player is using a 15% unconditional.
Another player is using a 15% ^ 50 mod. If that players health drops below 50, he could always weapon swap to a 20% under 50 mod. The player using the unconditional weapon, while able to be lazier, is ACTUALLY DOING LESS DAMAGE then a skilled player using proper weapon swaps. Unconditionals do not give any in game advantage, as they are statistically worse then normal weapons. At least, at any form of high level play where use of such weapons would matter, since everybody in that skill level should be able to weapon swap already.

Unconditionals are worth a lot because they are rare, not because they are "better."

(Argh ninjaed^)

How is that scenario any better than a +15% unconditional that you change to a +20%while under50% health mod when necessary?

An unconditional +15% is better than an equivalent weapon with 15^50. Period. How much better it is and how rare they are is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by killerbot3009

lol, fail idea in my opinion, they are rare drops, and collectors items, if they "fixed" them as you are suggesting it would bankrupt rich collectors, which isnt really fair lol, we worked hard for unconditional weapons and if you want to remove them that is a personal opinion and i think you should save up and get one lol.
they offer no more advantage than a Q8 weapon does, so why would you want to change it.

lets face it +15dmg items......all it saves you from doing is switching between +15^50 and +20v50. no game advantage what so ever... lol just time saving.

First off, fixing unconditionals does not necessarily require their value to be lost. Heck, just slap a "I used to be unconditional" label on them so that they'd still be special. That's what gives them value, after all.

Secondly, there is literally no situation in which a 15^50 is better than an unconditional. None. Anything you can do with a 15^50, an unconditional can do as well or better. If we accept the idea that this is acceptable because the effect is minor, we are accepting the idea that it is fine for some players to have mechanical advantages over others. And if one accepts that position, then why on earth would it be acceptable for anet to fix the triple mod weapons? The same issue applies to both. They provide an advantage that not all players can have. Consistency is all that is called for here.

Hobbs · Jan 21, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

How is that scenario any better than a +15% unconditional that you change to a +20%while under50% health mod when necessary?

An unconditional +15% is better than an equivalent weapon with 15^50. Period. How much better it is and how rare they are is irrelevant.

Using a 15% unconditional and a 20_50 is exactly the same as using a 15^50 and a 20_50. That's the point, you gain no advantage by having a 15% uncond. Your damage potential is exactly equal to that available to other players. This is why they don't need a nerf. If every player were only allowed to use one weapon in PvP, in the same way as armour, this would be an issue, but since you can swap weapons as many times and as regularly as you want unconds do not pose a problem.

Triple mods are quite different, a triple mod allows you to utilise a HCT, HSR and a +5^50 all at the same time on the same wand. An effect which cannot by duplicated by any amount of weapon swaps. You essentially have either more available energy or a higher chance at a quicker recharge or cast than a player with non-Triple equipment depending on what mods they have.

reaper with no name · Jan 21, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

If you use a 15^50 and 20v50 together and always switch perfectly, then and only then is it equivalent to an unconditional. Otherwise, the unconditional is better. Ie, for human beings, unconditionals are better.

Triple mod weapons are certainly more broken than unconditionals, but that doesn't make unconditionals balanced.

If it is acceptable for some players to have advantages over others, then there's no reason for the triple mod weapons to be removed. If it is not acceptable, then both triple mods and unconditionals need to be removed. It's as simple as that.

Hobbs · Jan 21, 2011, 02:30 AM // 02:30

The randomness introduced by critical hits and gap between 15-22/6-28 etc. far outweighs the slight difference in damage caused by switching weapon set a second late or a second early. If you graphed the damage output by the same player first using an uncond and a 20_50 and then using a 15^50 with a 20_50, I would bet the graphs would be identical or at least have less difference than a data set in which the player got lucky with crits and a data set in which the player was unlucky.

*lemming* · Jan 21, 2011, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If you use a 15^50 and 20v50 together and always switch perfectly, then and only then is it equivalent to an unconditional. Otherwise, the unconditional is better. Ie, for human beings, unconditionals are better.

Triple mod weapons are certainly more broken than unconditionals, but that doesn't make unconditionals balanced.

If it is acceptable for some players to have advantages over others, then there's no reason for the triple mod weapons to be removed. If it is not acceptable, then both triple mods and unconditionals need to be removed. It's as simple as that.

Objectively speaking you're right.

In practice, find me one unconditional that's actively in use.

If there's one person who's willing to customize a weapon that's worth $5000 USD so that he can do an additional 15% of his base physical damage in the ten times per year that he'll be autoattacking when below 50%, I say let him be.

Tender Care · Jan 21, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

then make crystallines, e-blades, VS, froggies and req 8 stuff drop from the assholes of the mobs outside Kamadan cos they are too expensive and only some ppl can afford them u_u

i don't agree...if something existed before but is extremely rare it's good to be left in game, otherwise remove ALL existing PRE-NERF items from GW (for the happiness of Pleikki and Friends XD)

Tharg · Jan 21, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

if the currents owners of these 'imbalanced' weapons have acquired them legally, Arena Net should not be allowed to 'balance' them. It's not a nerf that affects the whole community equally, it's a nerf that affects part of the player population - that did nothing to deserve it.

Tharg

Horus Moonlight · Jan 21, 2011, 11:42 PM // 23:42

In an ideal world, I agree with reaper. However, seeing as there is limited support for GW and the cost of removing unconditionals greatly outweighs the benefit, I'm against removing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharg

if the currents owners of these 'imbalanced' weapons have acquired them legally, Arena Net should not be allowed to 'balance' them. It's not a nerf that affects the whole community equally, it's a nerf that affects part of the player population - that did nothing to deserve it.

Tharg

ANet can do whatever they please and have done targeted nerfs before that have only affected a subset of the population.

MithranArkanere · Jan 22, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

then make crystallines, e-blades, VS, froggies and req 8 stuff drop from the assholes of the mobs outside Kamadan cos they are too expensive and only some ppl can afford them u_u

i don't agree...if something existed before but is extremely rare it's good to be left in game, otherwise remove ALL existing PRE-NERF items from GW (for the happiness of Pleikki and Friends XD)

Those things you mention were meant to exist as rare from the beginning.
Bugged drops like unconditionals or those from the mausoleum are rare too, but that doesn't mean they should stay.

The thing is simple. If a weapon or armor has stats that can't be replicated with the PvP item creation panel, either the item must be fixed so it doesn't have those stats, or the PvP item creation panel is updated to have those stats.
I even include in that all those silly Prophecies collector items and quest rewards with weird stats.
This is not GW2. States have very delimited and stricts upper and lower limits that should never be broken.
And since unconditionals would make pointless all the other conditions in the other 15% inscriptions, either you remove all those conditions, or add the mission condition to the unconditionals.

Missing HB · Jan 22, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Maybe i don't understand very well the point here , but in my opinion it doesn't make sense. Those very rare old weapons aren't many and almost all are kept by collectors .

Even if people decided to use those , i don't believe it would bring such a big advantage. I mean ,come on , eventually if we talked about some bugged swords with 25-32 damage , but we're talking about 15% unconditionnal instead of 15% above 50% health.. seriously...

So , they should just leave items as they are , it won't change anything , if only not make those collectors angry.. /not signed

vader · Jan 22, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Back in the first days of the game, there were some weapons that dropped which had +xx% damage mods with no conditions to them. Today, they're incredibly rare because they don't drop any more, but being rare just means that only a few "elite" players get them, gaining a minor but nevertheless existent advantage over other players, which is thereby anathema to the game's theme of player equality.

Triple mod weapons are weapons that are only supposed to have two mods, but have three instead. They dropped in the Mausoleum, and Anet says that they're going to get rid of them in a future update.

Of course, ideally, wintergreen weapons should be subject to this as well. The question is, how to "fix" these weapons without diminishing their value (for wintergreen weapons, making peppermint weapons have the same properties would do it, since the skins on wintergreen weapons are unique; for unconditional weapons, they could be given some unique condition that no other weapon mod has that is nevertheless no better than standard inscriptions).

I'm a bit confused as to why you think Wintergreen weapons need to be "fixed". What is bugged with them?

FengShuiDove · Jan 22, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Objectively speaking you're right.

In practice, find me one unconditional that's actively in use.

If there's one person who's willing to customize a weapon that's worth $5000 USD so that he can do an additional 15% of his base physical damage in the ten times per year that he'll be autoattacking when below 50%, I say let him be.

This. Like I said, in practice a roll of the critical hit dice is more influential than an unconditional.

Countess Marie · Jan 24, 2011, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If you use a 15^50 and 20v50 together and always switch perfectly, then and only then is it equivalent to an unconditional. Otherwise, the unconditional is better. Ie, for human beings, unconditionals are better.

That's exactly right. Not to mention situations where you could use one more +15 attack to get a kill.

People talk about the difference between that and over 50 being negligible, but isn't the difference between 14 and 15 also? And yet, people are going to take the 15.

I don't think it would be hard to get rid of them, but the other people are correct in saying that it's not something that matters at this point.

Edit: Also, speaking of the law of critical averages, it would apply to both sides thus making the comparison equal (and the mention irrelevant.)

-CM

Haggis of Doom · Jan 24, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The thing is simple. If a weapon or armor has stats that can't be replicated with the PvP item creation panel, either the item must be fixed so it doesn't have those stats, or the PvP item creation panel is updated to have those stats.
I even include in that all those silly Prophecies collector items and quest rewards with weird stats.
This is not GW2. States have very delimited and stricts upper and lower limits that should never be broken.

How about req8 or lower weapons/shields?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

People talk about the difference between that and over 50 being negligible, but isn't the difference between 14 and 15 also? And yet, people are going to take the 15.

It IS negligible, and people ARE aware of this.

The reason 14s and 19s aren't traded much is only because the perfect versions are so common. And in the case of rare collector items, the buyer has so much wealth to burn that they may as well go for the perfect version.

Bright Star Shine · Jan 25, 2011, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Bugged drops like unconditionals or those from the mausoleum are rare too, but that doesn't mean they should stay.

Who ever said uncod's are bugged?

To all you people who are too lazy to first research uncod's, please read this first:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=37

Good, now I'm too lazy to look for Yawg's story, and I know Yawg is a very smart guy who knows a lot more about this game than I will probably ever do, but tbh on this one, I think Akh's correct..

And also, on that thread, you can see the ~25 uncod's that are semi-active in the game.. Almost ALL of them custo'd.. Why? Beats the hell out of me, I wouldn't give a toss about 20% more base damage, when I'm holding a weapon that's worth 5 mini kanaxai's (Ok, that's a bit over the top, but you get my point).

The thing is, these weapons were intentionally placed in the game at the very start of GW. Therefor, there was no immediate reason back then, after they got nerfed to remove them, which is the reason they haven't been..

They don't have a benefit over a 15^50 20_50 set, because 1. Most of them aren't even 15% and 2. for the couple times you are below 50%, you will do more damage than that one, therefor, they are less powerful.

And for the last bloody time, stop crying about uncod's, they've never hurt anyone, and they never will.. And they are shiny pieces of art that are to stay here, if you remove them, everything is gonna be the same, dull, common weapon. Not that I own one, or ever will, or even want to for that matter, I'd sell it anyway..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

How about req8 or lower weapons/shields?

What's wrong with those? Wanna nerf them too? Hell let's make every weapon in the game q9 15^50 so everyone will start QQ'ing?

q8 drops still drop, and therefor are most certainly intended and q7 and q8 on every weapon besides shield, focus and sword stopped dropping too, but you can get very close to them..

Yawgmoth · Jan 25, 2011, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Stupid joke of a thread. OP - Have you been beaten with an unconditional weapon? Really?

There are NO items in the game which are unbalanced enough to create a significat advantage and to warrant a nerf but some people can QQ about just anything, even the tiniest little bit of imbalance, even if it has practically ZERO impact on the gameplay.

Personally I have nothing against having all those omgunfair being used against me in PvP and PvE is in desperate need of more variety - it's a great shame that a large variety of interesting weapons on the market aren't possible drops anymore.
I'd suggest something opposite to actually make the game more interesting - bring back the possibility of unconditional damage weapons drop in Tyria!

+10-11% - Semi-Rare (like +15/-1degen weapons)
+12% - Very rare (like 5x more rare than 11%)
+13% - Extreme rare (like 20x more rare than 12%)
+14% - ?? a Mystery (maybe someone somewhere will get one)
+15% - NO (but don't touch the existing few, they're harmless)